Elements

[vaxjedi]

So, the neo-pagan correspondence for directions and elements is east-air, south-fire, west-water, north-earth. Now, this implies certain interrelationships. People generally assume fire and water are opposites. However, if fire is south, wouldn't north be the opposite, thus earth be the opposite of fire?

This makes a certain sense to me, if you look at north-south as a spectrum of rigidity. Earth is the maximum rigidity, and fire is the least rigid (being without definite form or substance). This works in the more spiritual/mental metaphors as well.

What does that make water-air then? They both do not have definite shape and have mass, so they must symbolize something else. Maybe a spectrum of expansiveness (air has no definite volume - it expands and can be compressed; water maintains volume)? How does that metaphor extend? In terms of the usual attributes, air is intellect and water is emotion. So do we see here a spectrum of rational-irrational? Does that correspond?

Comments

[worldmage.livejournal.com]

Both axes are gross-subtle pairs. Earth is gross (you can pick it up and hold it), while fire is subtle (you can't really grab fire itself). Water is likewise gross and air subtle. The ancients, particularly the greeks and indians, liked to group things this way. There's also something to be said for the symbolic meanings of the elements. The earth-fire axis represents the continuum of stability-dynamism while, as you say, air-water represents reason-emotion.

[flaim.livejournal.com]

Hmm.. interesting thoughts. So if you have two axes, can you pinpoint someone at a certain point on those two axes, as being such-and-such rigid and so-and-so expansive? and how to do the two interrelate? What's the difference between high rigidity and low expansiveness vs. high rigidity and high expansiveness? Ok, so I ask a lot of questions. :)

[hopeevey.livejournal.com]

I learned it first as West=Water and East=Air, but later read several references that insisted that South=Air and East=Fire.

[vaxjedi]

I got west and east backwards. Fixed

[asphixiapixia.livejournal.com]

I don't call quarters in that order. When I was on the west coast I called them in this order

North - Air (Frigid North, Arctic Air)
East - Earth (Middle America was to the east)
Fire - South (The fire countries and the equator)
West - Water (The great Pacific Ocean was th the west)

This worked for several reason. The simplest is this, you raise power in circle. In this order North and South are represented by male elements and East and West are female. A generator effect is created alternating between male and female powers. Now that I live on the East coast I have reversed East and West. Magic should be based on your local I think. Ancients used herbs and called on ancestors that were relevant to the land and I believe that the directions should be no different.

I know the flurry of literature which seems to have no reference except other new age writing tends to disagree with me. However, I don't believe everything I read and I tend to question shit. That's why I am not Christian in the first place.

I also use these associations:
Air - Vertical - Male - Introverted - Intellectual
Earth - Horizontal - Female - Extroverted - Intellectual
Fire - Vertical - Male - Extroverted - Emotional
Water - Horizontal - Female - Introverted - Emotional

This doesn't work for everyone but it does for me.

[vaxjedi]

There is no need to agree with what everyone else, paganism is definite a 'roll your own' religion.

As for directions being based off of local situations, that makes sense. Of course, that begs a few questions. Like, which direction is water in Hawaii? Which direction is fire at the equator?

Or does an element/direction correspondence break down in those situations?

I admit, I am looking for more a universal axis in this respect for a project.

[sneezythesquid.livejournal.com]

Humm...very good thoughts there. From what (admittedly) little I know, drawing it in a circle makes more sense than calling in the "cardinal directions". And you make a very good point about local influences upon your rituals. It feels to me that things would flow better that way, than calling in outside influences to override the way things are where you happen to be.

Mind you, what I actually know about magic would fill a thimble, and is mainly second hand...

However, I don't believe everything I read and I tend to question shit. That's why I am not Christian in the first place.

That's been my bigest stumbling block with learning more about magic. That cynic voice in the back of my head can get way too strong. Its something I need to work on.

[elf]

Mike Nichol's essay Rethinking the Watchtowers is worth looking at here. It's not an absolute answer, but it's food for thought.

Also worth considering is the Chinese set of 5 elements: Wood, Fire, Earth, Metal, and Water, which have a "creative cycle" (listed here: wood gives birth to fire, which gives birth to earth (ashes); earth gives metal, metal gives water (which condenses on the surface); water brings wood.

And it's got a "destructive cycle" of Wood, Earth, Water, Fire, Metal:
Wood brought into contact with Metal is felled;
Earth brought into contact with Wood is penetrated;
Water brought into contact with Earth is halted.
Fire brought into contact with Water is extinguished;
Metal brought into contact with Fire is dissolved;

No direct opposites.

Tarot Contemplation of Elements points out: In Greek philosophy, and later in alchemy, the four elements were associated with combinations of certain qualities - they were either hot or cold, wet or dry, as follows:

Earth - cold and dry
Water - cold and wet
Fire - hot and dry
Air - hot and wet

In that system, the opposites are Fire/Water and Earth/Air.

I don't have any particular conclusions to draw. I'm still amused by the concept that while every neopagan group that assigns elements to the pentacle puts "Spirit" at the top (or "Ether," or "Akasha"), there is *no* agreement on the placement of the other four: I've found several different arrangements, each with its own explanation.

[vaxjedi]

Interesting concepts in that first article. However there seems to be a lot of "hey, I'm right! And here's why damnit!" to it.+

I guess that my overall thought is that your elements, however you describe them, make a heuristic and that for it to be effective, that heuristic needs to make sense to the people using it.

Of course, this doesn't get me closer to what I am working on, as I am working on a personal heuristic that includes elemental attributions to directions.

[lordhannibal.livejournal.com]

I don't know if it is helpful, but in a fantasy context I recall from somewhere they had the "para elemental" elements.

Ice or Mud | Earth | Magma or Smoke
----------------------------------------------
Water | | Fire
----------------------------------------------
Steam or Vapour | Air | Heat or Lightning

Of course the opposition of the elements in this concept here is not in the same manner as you describe in the neo-pagan tradition. Probably because, as I said, this is from a fantasy context. Just my 2c worth.