(no subject)

[vaxjedi]

So I haven't posted in a while. Haven't been sure what to say in many respects. So I'll just do it in little bits, like usual.

I've been dealing with grief a lot lately. Well, not 'dealing with' it, just sort of experiencing it. The problems we have seem unending and that is wearing me down. I just don't rest well when I sleep anymore. I don't know if Miri is waking up more at night, or if I'm just waking up more when she does. Last night, she seemed to wake up every few hours wanted more water.

Money is up and down. We got a really small check from SSI, panicked and then tried to rearrange everything. Then got a full check a few days later. So we actually had enough to buy dinner. We keep getting hit by big expenses. My car keeps doing weird stuff. Then doctor's appointments, and then this then that. If we didn't keep having the unplannable expenses, we'd have enough money for all of our bills and a little extra.

---

This leads me into a thought. I spend a lot of my so-called extra money (and some of my not-extra money) on food. Not groceries, but soda aand such. Essentially it is comfort food. And I know that I really shouldn't - that money builds up. I could easily pay a bit extra on my credit card, or get another pack of diapers for Miri with that money.

But I still do it. And honestly, it's almost compulsive. eleri said that when she and kidarrian were married and really poor, they used to send a bunch of money on Magic the Gathering cards every month. And I've seen others in tight positions do the same. Now, when you are poor, or money is tight, aren't you supposed to buck up and live a more spartan life?

It seems that comforts are as essential to survival as all of these other things that we keep telling ourselves are essential. I go out to eat because it reminds me that I am not constantly under the gun - it's a luxury. And I need a luxury in order to not crack from the stress. Of course, it feels like I am needing luxuries more and more lately, but that's another rant.

So we treat ourselves, sometimes more than we can afford, in order to maintain some semblence of stability, to retain some feeling that our world can be a good place. But that puts us in debt more, which keeps us where we are.

I remember reading in a sociology text that studies found that poor people had a tendency to sort of 'give up' on improving their lot. After a point, the concept of improving your lot seems just too impossible of a task. So you try to make the lot your have more comfortable. I know that feeling. We are in debt with tons of medical bills hanging over our head, from before Miri was on Social Security and our own medical issues which aren't covered by a copay. It's like dealing with corruption in politics - after a point, you just stop caring, because nothing you do is going to change it.

I think that, more than anything, is what keeps people in the hole. The feeling (often true, as far as I can tell) that one has to sacrifice everything for an attempt at a better life with very little chance of getting it.

---

I just read The Flag is No Rag.

People still don't get it. The flag is a rag. It's a piece of cloth. The Bible is a book, a bunch of bound pieces of paper.

"But respect for the flag doesn't imply agreement with everything about America - only a bottom-line decision to be a part of it, for better or worse. "

No. Voting implies a decision to be a part of your nation. Taking part in the nation. Helping your fellow citizens. Paying your taxes.The flag is just a symbol. Putting the symbol above the nation and the supposed freedoms that it stands for isn't patriotism or respect. It's empty idolotry.

Comments

[kshandra]

I think that, more than anything, is what keeps people in the hole. The feeling (often true, as far as I can tell) that one has to sacrifice everything for an attempt at a better life with very little chance of getting it.

Yepyepyep.

[born-to-me.livejournal.com]

I think one of the things we forget is that we in this society are typically not poor. Not to lay a guilt trip on anyone, but if you have a job and a car, pets, can afford to have children and keep them in clothes, computers, ISP accounts, DVDs, VHS tapes, related equipment, hobby paraphenalia, then you are not poor. I've lived on the edges of hunger a time or two, but I could always find a way to afford those things I liked. If I'd forgone the soda, the dial-up, the new computer, the car and so on, I could have saved more money. As it was, I've always chosen to go on from paycheck to paycheck letting the debt pile up. I've not lived overseas but I know many people who have - and their tales of true poverty are enough to break my heart ten times over, and remind me that I'm living in and partaking of the wealthiest country on earth.

As to why people stay at that paycheck-to-paycheck level, I think some of it has to do with a poverty mentality, or as my grandmother used to say a "penny wise, pound foolish" mentality. We afford the little things, but don't save for the big things. I know how stuff overwhelms and drowns... until six months ago I lived in a constant state of poverty mentality, slowly cutting off amenities to try and stem the tide of debt. I'm working my way out of that now.

I have to disagree with your contention to some degree - I think that the problem starts earlier - people are taught they have to have a car, have children, have computers and TV's and all the stuff, then they lose their shirts maintaining the stuff, or the debt they've accumulated getting the stuff... then what you said kicks in, with people giving up when it's too overwhelming.

[novapsyche.livejournal.com]

Well, some Americans are poor. I, coming from a poor background, attended Grinnell College and supposedly graduated into the middle class. Well, I'm still poor. It's a bad economy, granted, but at this age, to still be making this low of a wage with a degree lends to that feeling that Blade was just talking about.

The "dream", of course, is opportunity. I'm poor now, but if I'm patient, eventually an opportunity will open up, and I will be rewarded for my skill, intelligence, education, and work experience. I honestly do have this faith. Call me misguided, if you will.

[born-to-me.livejournal.com]

Sorry, "poor" to me is not a college grad with a job and a roof over their head. That's not poverty, especially not in a global sense. True poverty is no education, no food on the table, no job, no home, nothing. You have the ability to better yourself. You might make $6.00 an hour, but compare that to $6.00 a week... or nothing. You have (as I have, as everyone reading this has) the ability to better themselves, unlike most people all over the world. You aren't poor, neither am I. Broke, probably. In debt, most likely. Poor? No. I don't buy it.

[vaxjedi]

No, it's not poverty on the scale you see in the rest of the world. I remember hearing a comic, a big guy, say "I grew up in a poor family. But you know, that's a great thing about the US you have fat poor people. Where else in the world are can fat people be considered poor."

Now, I've been a fat poor person, just like you describe. No education. No home, no food, no car, no food except for the hotdogs I got from a friend only the stuff I had before I was on the skids, etc. Luckily it only lasted a few months and I had a lot of friends to bum off of. And Eleri and Kidarrian had to decide between paying bills and eating. I think that qualifies as some level of poverty.

However, the point here is the importance of comforts, whether they be simple and basic (a warm place to sleep) to more complex and bourgeois (Internet connections). Can I save a lot of money by getting rid of the ISP? Sure. But I risk coming home to a broken wife.

It's not that people need things. It's that they need outlets. Whether that is a pretty dress, or an ISP conenction, or a chance to go skydiving or a walk in the park, they still need them. Otherwise you are dysfunctional, even if you aren't in Poverty™.

Yes it is a poverty mentality as oppsoed to a true poverty. But isn't it interesting that at almost every class level, except maybe people towards the top, people adopt that mentality? Now, I think it's easy to say "well, that's just because people are stupid". I really don't buy that conjecture.

[kidarrian.livejournal.com]

I agree with you....I don't buy any of this conjecture. sure I have never been without food to too terribly many days...but then again my childhood abuse wasn't too terribly bad either...I mean after all no scars, its all a matter of perspective.....I personally see what happens in most third world countries as even more appaling. thats not poor. thats day to day survival. thats *desperate*

and I am sick of hearing that there is no really truely poor this country is so rich yada yada yada.....ever seen some of east la's barrios? or talked to kids that have had to live on the streets for what ever reason? yes we have more, but the survial is just the same sometimes, the violence is just the same. In the end its the children who suffer

its all matters of degree I guess...and the stress is still the same...yeah blade and eleri could do without some of the comforts, but at what cost....not having any sort of life and breaking under the stress...and medical bills pile up quickly with miri..a lot of people in american are just a paycheck or two away from the streets. though we seem to turn a blind eye to that, after all we are so rich over all...I mean look at our garbage and waste and excess...

sometimes keeping sane now is necessary, and all things come at a cost.

[born-to-me.livejournal.com]

Oh, I'm not saying I don't *need* some things on the level you describe... it's just that I'm loathe to call myself *poor*, either. I know the stories my father has told from traveling the world, stories that gundo echoes after traveling the same world 20 years later.

I've known people who were what I call very rich with a poverty mentality... and I've had it no matter how much money I've made at any given time, although my youth was far from poverty stricken. I've struggled with how to fix mine for years. Oddly enough, gundo the Missionary Child doesn't have that mentality. He's got this amazing work ethic and this amazing ability to understand what he needs and wants and how to make it all work. I think he's going to cure mine, eventually. I'm not sure it's about having more money, I think it's about having more *resources* and being more comfortable with the give and take of life on a material level, if that makes any sense. Now, how to break the cycle... that's what I'm still working on.

And I don't buy the conjecture that people are stupid, either. People can be (behave and act) stupid, but rarely are they intrinsically so. Mostly I see willful ignorance, the refusal to use what they have at their disposal. Barring profound retardation (and I mean profound) I refuse to believe that all people aren't capable of basically the same things in life, and pretty much a similar level of competence. Granted, there are people in this life who are so truly brilliant it is humbling, but they've *shown* us their brilliance. Most peole I know with "above average intelligence" (whatever that is) don't ever do anything with it. I'm not going to give a 175 IQ any more credence in life than a 100 IQ if they aren't doing much that's different with what they've got.

there are cheaper ways to enjoy the same things

[netmouse.livejournal.com]

Regarding having soda, I don't consider it too much of a luxury if you buy it in large quantities at the grocery store, when it's on sale, and then keep it in a fridge to drink. If you buy it from impulse machines, yes, you are wasting money you could be saving without losing your comfort food.

Sometimes it's amazing to me how much people spend on things in different contexts. I've never really understood the mentality of going to a bar to drink beer and mixed drinks for $3 to $7 a glass when we can have a house and buy a whole bottle of liqour for $20 and a six-pack for $12. Similarly, a habit of buying snacks and soda from dispenser machines costs 2 to 5 times what it would cost to buy a stock of those things ahead of time. Don't even get me started on coffee.

My sister runs from paycheck to paycheck and has the poverty mentality. I've seen it. It was partially reinforced by this type of purchasing, mixed with denial of small luxuries when she was feeling cash poor. When she and I went on our road trip together, this showed up particularly well.

one time we were at a grocery store that had a coffee shop/bakery type of place. She commented to me that the per slice price on cheese cake was really reasonable. I said I didn't know. She stared at me and said she knew I'd been to coffee shops. Sure, I said, to meet people, but I usually just have a white hot chocolate or something like that. I've never gotten cheescake by the slice. It never made sense to me when we could make a whole cake at home for less than the price for a slice. only when we're out for a fancy dinner or something would I do that, and that's different. Somewhere in this conversation she started feeling like a wastrel. So later when we were picking out strawberry jelly, she suggested we save money and go for the no-brand type that looked extra sugary and not very lumpy, if you know what I mean. I disagreed. The price difference was only 30 cents. It didn't make sense to me to punish yourself for the impulse to spend $4 by cheating yourself on something else.

it's a crazy-making mentality to impose on yourself. it's better to put together a real budget - track your expenses for two months and talk together about places where you could save. don't take away all the comfort things.

Re: there are cheaper ways to enjoy the same things

[xiombarg.livejournal.com]

Sometimes it's amazing to me how much people spend on things in different contexts. I've never really understood the mentality of going to a bar to drink beer and mixed drinks for $3 to $7 a glass when we can have a house and buy a whole bottle of liqour for $20 and a six-pack for $12. Similarly, a habit of buying snacks and soda from dispenser machines costs 2 to 5 times what it would cost to buy a stock of those things ahead of time. Don't even get me started on coffee.

You may not share the mentality for it, but it's easy to understand.

You get more at a bar than your beer. In theory, you get companionship -- or, at least, the opportunity for companionship that is different from what's at home. Similarly, at home you don't get a bartender serving you -- for some people, not having to make the drink yourself is a luxury. Yes, it's not tough to pour a beer, but when you're bone tired, it's suprising what you're unwilling to do, and what you're willing to pay someone else to do.

In fact, some people consider drinking alone, at home, to be a sign of alcoholism -- that you're in it entirely for the alcohol and nothing else.

Same thing for a coffee house, really. Plus, it combines with the vending machine issue: Convenience and immediate gratification. Going home is a trip. It takes time. You want something to eat or drink NOW. And that's what you're paying for -- the "NOW" part of it.

Where that barrier is varies for different people. For example, I have a 45-minute to an hour drive home. If I'm feeling lightheaded and I want a tiny amount of food to stave off my hunger, a fifty cent package of pretzels seems like a good deal, rather than waiting until I get home, and possibly driving while lightheaded. Now, I could carry food with me -- Dora has suggested as much -- but if I don't feel that hungry that day, it's just going to sit in my pocket and get crushed or go stale.

And as far as comfort food goes: The whole point of comforting things is you want to be comforted right then, not an hour from now. After an hour, it might be too late, and your depression has already deepened.

Your point is valid. There are cheaper ways to enjoy the same things. But the thing itself might not be what's being enjoyed -- context is very important here.

Re: there are cheaper ways to enjoy the same things

[netmouse.livejournal.com]

You get more at a bar than your beer. In theory, you get companionship -- or, at least, the opportunity for companionship that is different from what's at home. Similarly, at home you don't get a bartender serving you -- for some people, not having to make the drink yourself is a luxury. Yes, it's not tough to pour a beer, but when you're bone tired, it's suprising what you're unwilling to do, and what you're willing to pay someone else to do.

In fact, some people consider drinking alone, at home, to be a sign of alcoholism -- that you're in it entirely for the alcohol and nothing else.


nod. I wasn't so much thinking of drinking at home alone as drinking at home with 5 to 30 other people. Getting together with a group like that, someone does often volunteer to be bartender, which is good because I don't so much know how to mix drinks. I especially love it when someone gets going on the blender.

re: being bone tired and willing to pay someone to do something for you, I guess I understand that, but when you get bone tired earning your money in the first place and then that condition makes you more likely to spend it, that just seems like a self-reinforcing cycle that's not necessarily good.


Same thing for a coffee house, really. Plus, it combines with the vending machine issue: Convenience and immediate gratification. Going home is a trip. It takes time. You want something to eat or drink NOW. And that's what you're paying for -- the "NOW" part of it.


nod, and if you're a coffee addict that's particularly hard, 'cause coffee that was made a while back and was just warmed up is nothing like coffee that was just brewed. Bill's company in Waterloo had a free coffee machine in their cafeteria in recognition of this.

And I guess that's part of my context here. I have yet to have a long-term job where there wasn't a refrigerator and a desk or other storage area available to me. I'm hypoglycemic, so when I need some juice or a snack, I need it NOW or my hands start shaking, I get emotionally unstable and I can't function (very well. My current job requires a lot of dexterity handling breakable things, so it's important to nip that in the bud). If I went and bought something every time that happened, I would think that quite wasteful, indeed. Instead I keep juice boxes in the small fridge in the basement at work, and I buy bulk peanut butter sandwich cracker packets for 25 cents each and keep them in a plastic bag in the office that I can dip into even if I'm the only one in the store.

Sure, it takes pre-planning to take soda to work (or home) and keep some cold, and someone might snitch some it it if it's in a communal fridge, but if you spend $3 on a 12-pack and someone steals 2 or 3, you've still spent a lot less per can than if you've bought them from a machine.

Now, I could carry food with me -- Dora has suggested as much -- but if I don't feel that hungry that day, it's just going to sit in my pocket and get crushed or go stale.

you can buy individual serving size packets at the grocery store that won't go stale and you can keep them in the glove or a box so they won't get crushed. pretzels are tricky though. they go stale very quickly once opened. Apples are better.

but I see your point.

[xiombarg.livejournal.com]

It seems that comforts are as essential to survival as all of these other things that we keep telling ourselves are essential. I go out to eat because it reminds me that I am not constantly under the gun - it's a luxury. And I need a luxury in order to not crack from the stress. Of course, it feels like I am needing luxuries more and more lately, but that's another rant.

Yeah, I know how you feel.

I see some people arguing in comments that Americans are lucky in that they're not starving. You know what? My emotions can starve too.

[toilteanas.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with you here... I think many would argue that people in third world countries don't even have time to think about emotionally starving, but I think the truth is closer to the fact that yes... they work horribly hard for what little they get, or even what they don't get, but more often than not, they live in communities with emotional support that Americans can't even begin to wrap their mind around.

And maybe it's a "rich" "American" mentality to have (as I think it might be argued that we can 'afford' to think this way), but I would give up our income any day to have a close-knit family with a lot of love and support and to have peace of mind.

Maybe this is an unrealistic an cheezy way of looking at things, but I've watched so many shows about families who choose to live in past time conditions (reality tv I guess you'd call it...but on PBS, not for prize ney but for the sake of the experience)- American pioneer times, 19th century manor house, time spent with a mongolian tribe and spent with an african tribe. These people learn to appreciate what they have materially back in the US, but they always come away with a far more richer emotional experience and tie to the people they worked and lived with... and I couldn't help but envy that.

Blade and Eleri don't nearly have the emotional support system that they would have if they lived in a truly 'poverty stricken' country. They're entire community would help take care of Miri.

My two pennies.

[toilteanas.livejournal.com]

sorry about all the damn typos

[eleri.livejournal.com]

we judge other peoples 'poverty' based on American values. Sure, someone living in an African tribe might only make the equivilant of $6 a week... but if their 'cost of living' is only $6/week, then what's the problem?

Blade works his ass off to pay the bills. I work my ass off, and don't get a paycheck in exchange. Despite that, we're barely keeping our head above water. Would we have more right to express the emotional and financial strain we're under if we sold our TV, our computer, if we shut off our phone? If we cut ourselves off completely from our friends, anything that brings joy to our lives, and lived on the bare nessecities?

Why does it matter if we meet someone's criteria of 'poor' or not? I'd rather not have the TV, computer and phone, it meant my daughter was ok, and Blade didn't have to choose between keeping me sane, and keeping a roof over our head.

[toilteanas.livejournal.com]

I thought I was arguing FOR your case... not against.

[eleri.livejournal.com]

sorry, didn't means to make it seem like I was sniping at you directly, it was comments on the thread in general.

[bloodlikerain.livejournal.com]

case n point, i sooo just went shopping, can i afford it? no. doesn't it make me feel better? yes.